Минное поле


Даже удивительно становится, какое бурное обсуждение может породить пост на совсем нейтральную тему, если неаккуратно затронуть в одном из комментов вопрос "кто такой еврей".


Аватар пользователя Файбш

So much hot air when the answer is obvious:

a Jew is someone who buys more books than he can read

Аватар пользователя Грайне

О, дааааа!)


Аватар пользователя loqva

Оригинальная английская пословица (из Гугла):
"It has been said that man is distinguished from animal in that he buys more books than he can read."

Аватар пользователя Файбш

"Во-вторых, ни Германия WWI, ни современные США или Англия не видят себя государствами немцев или англосаксов."

Don't know about WWI or the US, but the English see themselves as much Anglo-Saxons as the Russians - Slavs, whatever their genetics. Try and ask a typical Englishman if he wants to live in a multi-cultural society.(Incidentally, most English Jews who are not Orthodox, call themselves English first and Jewish later, if at all).

"С моей личной точки зрения, таких вузов в Союзе было большинство."

50.01%? My experience was that the "большинство" (well over 50.01%) of Soviet Jews didn't want to go to the "большинство" of Soviet 'вузов'; they wanted to go to the menьшинство who didn't want them.

"Бытовой антисемитизм мало отличается от бытового “антирусизма” здесь."

Now, I don't know how bad “антирусизм” is in Israel; no doubt, there is plenty of discrimination. The difference is that Israeli OVIR hasn't stopped many from going back to mother Russia (or leaving Israel for US, Germany, South Ossetia, North Korea, Papua New Guinea etc etc), while in the 1970s and early 1980s I knew some Moscow Jews who were packing their suit-cases for Haifa and un-packing them in Nizhnij Tagil.
Why do anti-Semites hate Jews more than it's necessary!

Аватар пользователя iwr

> no doubt, there is plenty of discrimination

Фишка в том, что дискриминация тут, если и есть, - не по национальному, а по общинному признаку. Скажем, несколько десятилетий назад, снобское ашкеназское общество дискриминировало только что прибывших восточных евреев, а в 90-е, когда приехало миллион "русских", объектом дискриминации стали они. Только направлена она была не на тех, кого галаха подвела, а на всех, кто с русским акцентом говорил и надевал сандалии на носки )).
Что же до дискриминации действительно русских иммигрантов (несвязанной с религиозным культом), то она выражается в том, что их не принимают на некоторые предприятия ВПК и они не имеют возможности бракосочетаться с евреем на территории Израиля.

Не исключено, что все наоборот (в смысле вариант про евреев первичен). Впрочем, не знаю.

Аватар пользователя Файбш

Yes, but the problem is that, for the first time in Israel's history (and pre-history), in the 1990s there was a mass immigration of people many of whom were neither Zionists, nor genuine refugees, like German Jews in the 1930s or Arab Jews in the 1950s-60s. If you are a veteran Israeli who loves his country and lost friends and family members fighting for her, you won't be exactly welcoming of people who came to Israel because they couldn't go to America and went back to Russia, when economy there got better. Also, why would you expect Moroccans to love Jews from Leningrad if Bukharoim and Azhkenazim hated each other in Tashkent? As Kipling would say: Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet

"Try and ask a typical Englishman if he wants to live in a multi-cultural society"
The point is hidden in the word "typical". In fact, it means that you are trying to determine a notion by the same (allegedly) determined notion. Not too fair.

"My experience was that the “большинство” (well over 50.01%) of Soviet Jews didn’t want to go to the “большинство” of Soviet ‘вузов’; they wanted to go to the menьшинство who didn’t want them"

I can tell you even more than that! I speculate that some considerable if not absolute majority of the Jews have once dreamed to be Rotshilds ("If I were a rich man... :) "). In reality, the majority could never be. Does this say anything about the discrimination? The Jews are generally very pragmatic people (when they are not standing on the roof playing their fiddle there, but in such cases the medicine is not any helpful). Who wanted to be a physician, became a physician and who wanted to be a lawyer or a musician or something else, could become that. The same is true about scientists etc. If one was not allowed to get accepted to MAI, he could go to Kiev or Riga and there he could gain the same (more or less, but this mostly depends on the individual rather on the university) education and be granted the same professional diploma.

Аватар пользователя Файбш

Not sure why it is 'not too fair'; I don't see a logical flaw here. 'Typical' means, say, three quarters in any large group of randomly (OK - quasi-randomly) selected Englishmen.

That most Jews want to but can't be rich (and send children to MGU) per se doesn't suggest disctimination. Most non-Jews also want to but can't be rich. Now compare the two groups in terms of success they get for their efforts.

"Who wanted to be a physician, became a physician and who wanted to be a lawyer or a musician or something else, could become that."

And who wanted to be a diplomat? Шутить изволите-с?

Actually, I am glad one clever Jewis boy didn't get a place at MechMat MGU despite winning numerous maths competitions - my old friend Zeev (Volodya then) Geyzel. He could have been yet another boring professor of mathematics, whereas all Bnei-Brak taxi-drivers sing Vysotzky in Zeev's Hebrew translation.

"Все изменила Октябрьская революция" (фильм "Асса") Unbelieavable but true. There is no dicrimination of Jews in modern Russia. Never heard that a Jew wasn`t hired because of the nationality (I mean in last 10 years or so). As for higher education, nobody gives a buck if matriculant a Jew or not, the size of the bribe is much more important.

Аватар пользователя iwr

> He could have been yet another boring professor of mathematics, whereas all Bnei-Brak taxi-drivers sing Vysotzky in Zeev’s Hebrew translation.

Ну, Никитину физфак не помешал :).

Аватар пользователя Файбш

Yes, except when you are a Jewish oligarch; Jews (Nevzlin, Berezovsky, Khodorkovsky, Guzinsky et al) seem to be over represented among Kremlin's new enemies. Somehow, most Russian oligarchs are neither in jail nor in exile.

Аватар пользователя Файбш

Nikitin is the Kobzon of Soviet bard-culture. I don't know about physics, but entertainment gained nothing from him

De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum!

Some of Russian-Jewish oligarchs are friends not foes to Kremlin`s tenants. Fridman, Abramovich (I don`t dare to tell that he is in exile), Vekselberg, Mihelson, Aven, Kantor - to name a few. Rotenberg brothers are near Putin from the days of Leningradski obkom.
Also you could find non-Jews among rich exiles from Russia

Аватар пользователя iwr

Well, it seems that your old friend Zeev Geyzel doesn't think so:

Аватар пользователя Файбш

hac mercede placet

I just wish I'd never heard all those songs about BAM and Komsomol

I personally cannot recall Nikitin sing about BAM and Komsomol, but I may be wrong. Anyway, there are many other songs of his.

Аватар пользователя Файбш

All true.
And yet, anti-Semitism is like pornography: you know it when you see it. Alexander Yakovlev (Mr Glasnost) said shortly before his death that Jew-hatred, not Communism, was KGB's cult.(former general Oleg Kalugin writes a lot about it in his memoir). I just doubt that the 'siloviki' developed a craving for gefilte fish once they got in and around Kremlin.

Аватар пользователя Файбш

OK, I take my 'Kobzon' comment back; whatever Geyzel touches, turns into gold.
Funny, though: I spent one very hot summer in Brich Mullah (and Yusup Hana ) in...1978 (mostly smoking dope and arguing with local Uzbeks) but never thought of writing a song, while Zeev has never been to the place.

Аватар пользователя Файбш

I was thinking of Kobzon, not Nikitin.
Mea culpa

OK. Accepted :)

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